Ahead of Ireland’s first test against New Zealand JOE had the opportunity to spend some time with All Black legend Sean Fitzpatrick who talked Leinster, Ireland’s inexperienced players and the upcoming tests…
New Zealand is the greatest rugby nation on earth and Sean Fitzpatrick is one of their most revered players and until last year the only All Black player to have lifted a World Cup in victory, way back in 1987. JOE caught up with him ahead of spending the summer as a pundit on Sky Sport’s coverage of Ireland’s Tour of New Zealand.
JOE: First of all just to check Sean, you haven’t been getting abuse on the streets of Dublin since you’ve arrived here?
SF: [Laughs] No luckily not, thank god people realise I’m the other one!
JOE: You’re aware of who I’m taking about?
SF: I am well aware alright, don’t worry – I’m the other one.
JOE: It’s quite funny; I went on Google Ireland today and despite Ireland’s status as a rugby nation…
SF: [Laughs] He’s not above me is he?
JOE: Sorry…
SF: [Laughs again] That’s alright…
JOE: All that nonsense aside, the Ireland-New Zealand match-up over the years is one Ireland desperately want to win, but I get a sense that when New Zealand talk about Ireland they do it graciously with respect, but there is never a doubt in their minds that they’re going to beat us…
SF: I wouldn’t say that.
They respect Ireland and they go into every match knowing they’ve got to do the hard yards and if the result happens, it happens.
I would put it this way; we never go into a game underestimating Ireland and that’s why we have never lost to Ireland.
I don’t think any New Zealander wants to be in the first All-Black team to lose to Ireland. I have played Ireland on many occasions and it has always been a very physical game.
I know the John Afoas and the Doug Howletts of this world have been on their phones to their mates in New Zealand and said ‘You guys better watch out, because if they can transfer what they have done in the provincial sides into the national side they’ll be the best side in Europe.’
I suspect especially this time the All Blacks will have watched the Heineken Cup and appreciated what Leinster have done and appreciate the calibre of experience Ireland has.
It’s the first time the All Blacks have had to play three tests in a row against Ireland at home and they have three tough weeks ahead of them.
JOE: That’s quite interesting because when you were playing Ireland it was one of the darker ages for Irish rugby, getting the wooden spoon nearly every second year. Is there an appreciation that provincial rugby in Ireland is at a peak and that we have developed very stylish back-play as opposed to the physical forward play that would have typified the Irish side of your era?
SF: No not really, I think they have the all-round package.
If you look at Leinster they are phenomenal at set pieces, the loose-forward trio has been fantastic.
You have to have a scrum and if you don’t have a scrum, well you’re not going to beat the All-Blacks, I can tell you that right now.
A lot of these players have a lot of knowledge about New Zealand and New Zealand have a lot of knowledge of Ireland.
I know the John Afoas and the Doug Howletts of this world have been on their phones to their mates in New Zealand and said ‘You guys better watch out, because if they can transfer what they have done in the provincial sides into the national side they’ll be the best side in Europe.’
That’s the difficult part and something that Ireland hasn’t done though, transfer that Heineken cup form into the international level.
JOE: Why do you think that is?
SF: I don’t know – there is a lot of provincial tribalism I suppose… In New Zealand everything is fed into the national team where maybe over here it is very much Munster, Ulster, Connacht and Leinster and they all have different styles of rugby.
In New Zealand they all have the same style that feeds into the national team.
JOE: That’s an interesting perspective because in the Irish media we would compare ourselves favourably to England with club rugby taking precedence over the national side over there and our players having centralized contracts with the IRFU.
You think there are greater lengths Ireland can go to centralising processes and making the Irish international team the focus?
SF: I think so. New Zealand had a camp last week in the middle of the Super 15, I don’t think that happens here as often.
All their fitness tests, speeds tests from club level get passed onto the national team, the All-Black coaches will spend a week with each franchise during the season too.
Graham Henry works as a mentor to all the coaches too.
…the IRFU have to decide – do they want to win test matches or Heineken cups?
For the players the ultimate is to play for the All Blacks.
I think there’s a lot of talk over here that you don’t have a front row outside Healy and Ross, well you have to look at that.
I mean the tight-head props in Ulster and Munster are foreigners and that doesn’t help in developing young players.
JOE: We recently brought in new rules that there will be more stringent restrictions on foreign players coming into the country. Some people have been critical of this pointing to say Isa Nacewa at Leinster and saying ‘well we need a player like him’ you would probably think the new rules might be beneficial based on what you are saying…
SF: I think having players like him, who can play in three or four positions, is good short term, but that’s what the IRFU have to decide – do they want to win test matches or Heineken cups?
If they want to win test matches they’re going to have to start playing young Irish players against the best at provincial level because that’s the only way to do it, especially in positions like tight-head prop that are so vital.
You might say that the John Afoas of the world are going to help develop those players, well those players aren’t going to get many games while he’s there…
JOE: How do you think Ireland might do with New Zealand coming off the back of the incredible high and focus of so many years of winning a second World Cup?
SF: Well I think the expectation is that they will be a little flat, like we saw in the Super 15, but having said that it’s only two or three players that have been a little flat. If you look at Cruden, Richie McCaw they’re both back playing as is Carter, Read has been outstanding in the early half of the Super 15 as has Nonu.
I suppose the two lads that haven’t been playing well are Weepu and Ali Williams, but having said that going into the World Cup Nonu and Weepu were lucky to make the squad and yet in the end they were the stars of the World Cup.
So once they get back into that All Black environment – form changes.
I think if Ireland are to have any chance it will be in the first test.
That being said there’s a new coaching set-up in New Zealand that wants to prove itself and get off to a good start.
JOE: You said at the start of this interview that it is actually on the All-Blacks’ minds that they won’t want to be the first New Zealand side to lose to Ireland, it’s interesting that this is a motivation and consideration for these world-class players…
SF: I think so yeah! It certainly was a motivation for me.
It’s like with Wales, my father was on the first All-Black team to lose to Wales in 1953 and he had to live with that the rest of his life…
JOE: Did he ever talk to you about that?
SF: No! [Laughs]
JOE: When you stack up fifteen men against fifteen men how do you think this Irish side will fare? They obviously have named a lot of inexperienced players in their squad and are they ready to face the challenge that New Zealand will assuredly bring?
SF: Well me personally if I was in Brian O’Driscoll’s shoes I wouldn’t be able to wait!
You’re facing the world champions in the hardest place to win, for me personally I’d be relishing the challenge.
JOE: If you were in Simon Zebo’s shoes though… in a season where you have at times been mercurially brilliant and at other stages have let matches pass you by and now been brought from the underage squads and the Wolfhounds to face the best team in the world? Is this a defining moment for him and players like him?
SF: Well yes, you want to test yourself against the best and at the moment the All Blacks are the best.
You have got to go down there though and say that you can beat these guys, that’s what I’d be saying and I’m sure that’s what Brian O’Driscoll is saying.
You have to have a scrum though and if you don’t have a scrum, well you’re not going to beat the All-Blacks, I can tell you that right now.
Ferris is out and O’Connell is out too, you take those guys out of any side and you’re going to have a massive hole.
I think Ferris has been the player of the year actually and I think you need players like that.
JOE: So what do you think is going to be the end result?
SF: Well, I’d be disappointed if the All-Blacks didn’t win 3-0.
The All Blacks have to play well though.
They’ll know what Leinster bring to the party, they’ll know what Munster and Ulster bring to the party and they’ll do what they do best – put unbelievable pressure on teams.
Some of these Irish guys won’t be used to that pressure and even the experience of being there.
When I went back for the World Cup, the sheer passion and pressure is unbelievable, fortunately for this New Zealand side – they know how to harness that fear of failure, but for the Irish boys – well the O’Driscolls and older lads are going to be crucial for letting the younger lads know what they’re getting into.
JOE: I think you have just worried every Irish rugby fan!
SF: [Laughs] Sorry!
Ireland’s three-Test tour to New Zealand and the 2012 Junior World Championships are live in HD on Sky Sports. The New Zealand Test starts on the 9th June, and continues on the 16th and 23rd of June.
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